I should like to start by pointing out to the House that Deputy Roche was best known as Martin O'Donoghue's adviser in the late seventies.

It would be the basis for a separate public inquiry to find out how many billions of pounds of the debt we now have to carry here was due to Deputy [660] Roche's incompetence and advice, if one could call it that.

He mentioned me in regard to some company whose name I have seen in recent times. I do not mind any examination being carried out into my role as Minister in relation to any company. I have let it be known publicly that I want to go before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. I am volunteering to do so. Contrast this with the position adopted by the Minister for Agriculture and Food who has ducked and weaved better than Barry McGuigan ever did in his attempts to avoid going before that Committee. Many matters could be cleared up if Ministers were above board, addressed the Committee and told them what they know. We might then not need to have High Court investigations or inquiries. Obviously, the order came down from the Taoiseach to Deputy O'Kennedy not to attend, to hide and postpone everything and avoid saying anything. In any event he would not let him attend as he was afraid he would make an idiot of himself as he has done repeatedly during the past four or five weeks.
The Fianna Fil Party, and to a lesser extent the Progressive Democrats, complain that there is no need to have a vote of no confidence in the Government. The marker was put down by four Fianna Fil Deputies two weeks ago who voted no confidence in the Government. As Deputy David Andrews said at the time of the Fianna Fil Parliamentary Party meeting, they were four brave individuals. By their actions, they voted no confidence in the Leader of the Government and the Cabinet. There is little point in saying that we have instigated a witch hunt. Public events in recent times clearly illustrate that the Government are unfit to continue to rule the country. The Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, Deputy Seamus Brennan, in his contribution yesterday made allegations against the previous Coalition Government of Fine Gael and Labour.
[661] He referred to the PMPA, ICI and the Irish Shipping Company but there was no scandal involving any politician of that Government.

The person who owned the PMPA, the late Mr. Joe Moore, was a well-known Fianna Fil supporter, a good friend of the Taoiseach and a big financial supporter of the Fianna Fil Party. It was not a State company, it was a public company, money was misappropriated and it was very badly and secretly run. It did not impinge one iota on the Government of the day. Indeed, the people responsible got off very lightly.
The dbacle of the ICI, the subsidiary of the Allied Irish Banks, had nothing to do with the State or semi-State sector; it concerned a private company and we had the job of bailing it out. In retrospect - indeed even at the time - I was one of the people who felt that the senior management of the AIB and the ICI companies should have been brought up on criminal charges. How dare Minister Brennan or anybody else suggest that the Government of the day had anything to do with that collapse or were at fault? The people running the company were at fault, to save the banking system the Government had to bail them out, which was our public duty.
I should also like to point out that the money lost in Irish Shipping was lost within the company by a middle to higher executive who spent money without reference to the board or the Minister. No blame can be attached to anybody in Government at the time. Again there probably should have been criminal charges. We are too soft in relation to wrongdoers and I hope, in the series of present scandals, that if there is enough evidence criminal charges will be preferred and that those concerned will not get off scot-free as happened in the case of a certain individual, a friend and associate of the Leader of the Government, who was imprisoned in Northern Ireland for a much lesser offence than he committed in [662] this State. Those are the facts. Minister Brennan, for whom I previously had some regard, should be ashamed of himself; I thought he was a decent, straightforward individual but he has shown himself to be petty, miserable and cowardly in his attack yesterday.
Mr. Ferris Mr. Ferris 


Yesterday the Taoiseach and Deputy Dermot Ahern said that there was not a scintilla of evidence to indict the Taoiseach or the Government. Maybe these inquiries will disclose some evidence. However, the incompetence shown by the Minister for Agriculture in relation to the Greencore affair certainly is an indictment in itself. It is a great pity that Deputy Lenihan or former President Hillery have not told us exactly what happened on the night of the telephone calls to ras an Uachtarin. I wonder where the Taoiseach would be if they told us what had happened, he would not be partially covered in muck, he would be completely covered in it. Those two gentlemen have a public duty to tell us what happened because we all know in our hearts and souls that it was the Taoiseach who threatened the Army officer in ras an Uachtarin on that night.

I want to refer to the present dire situation of agriculture and the total collapse of confidence in the agricultural sector. That lack of confidence is largely due to the performance [663] of the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy O'Kennedy, together with the overall performance of the Government. Their indiffrence has been scandalous. Their regard for the farming community, the workers in the ancillary industries and the business community which supply that industry, borders on the criminal; they just do not care. There has been a collapse in prices in the cattle and sheep sectors in recent times and there has not been any remedial action by the Minister responsible.
Proposals from Brussels, which, if implemented, will decimate our agricultural industry, are being treated as if they are run-of-the-mill events. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, is reported in The Cork Examiner of last Monday in some detail following a meeting of Ministers of Trade and Industry in Holland. He said that the position in regard to the GATT negotiations and reform of the Common Agricultural Policy was very grave indeed. His reason for saying that was that the Germans have abandoned their position with regard to agriculture and the French have weakened their position in relation to opposing the measures proposed by Commissioner MacSharry. If a small country like Ireland is to achieve a reasonable result in Europe it must have the backing of at least two of the major states. To date we could rely on the support of the Germans and the French but now, apparently the German Government have made a very definite decision that they will not oppose the tough measures proposed by Commissioner MacSharry. They will endeavour to see that the proposals are pushed through and that the GATT round of negotiations is concluded by the end of this year, in other words, they are giving in to the USA lobby on this issue.
The French are not as definite as they were in this regard and it looks as if they may also agree to abandon their stance in opposition to these measures. It is disastrous from the point of view of this country. We will be on our own and [664] we do not have the clout to oppose the measures as they should be opposed. Minister O'Kennedy is not fit to carry out negotiations of this magnitude, he has shown no ability in that regard over the last four and a half years. There is no reason to believe that there will be a transformation on the eve of the most momentous decision ever taken in regard to agriculture in this country.
The Taoiseach has been seriously at fault in not touring the capitals of the EC to lobby his fellow Heads of State in regard to this issue. When Deputy Garret FitzGerald was Taoiseach he lobbied in 1983-84 with considerable success. These proposals, if implemented, will be much more devastating and the Taoiseach has not seen fit to have the matter debated at the meeting of Heads of State. Apparently he referred to it when we goaded him into doing so six months ago but he has not done any lobbying. We are particularly annoyed at his failure to do so.

It looks as if the Government are indifferent to what is proposed in Europe, events at home are per-occupying their minds. The whole issue has been clouded by events at home and the Government are not paying attention to events in Europe. I do not hear any demands nowadays from the Fianna Fil backbenchers for assistance for Irish farmers in financial difficulties. When we were in Government we devised a whole series of schemes to help people in difficulties, such as farmers are at present. The most valuable of these schemes was the introduction of Euroloans where farmers could get money at considerably reduced rates of interest. The Government at present do not want to know about any form of relief for farmers in difficulty. Every day farmers are going to the wall in increasing numbers. It is inconceivable that the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Government have not devised a strategy [665] to offset the difficulties confronting the industry at the moment.
This affects not only farmers but also workers in the agri-industry, the rural economy, in fact the economy as a whole. Unless some concerted action is taken by the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Government, matters will get considerably worse. Whether people wish to face up to the fact, the reform of the CAP as proposed is an integral part of the GATT negotiations. To find out that the Germans are not prepared to go along with cuts in subsidies as high as 30 per cent is frightening; it seems they are now willing to entertain cuts which could be as high as 70 or 75 per cent. If anything like that was to be entertained in this country, our farming sector would fall asunder and the whole economy would suffer gravely. Farming would become a non-profitable activity, except for a few hundred very large farmers.
Our markets and competitiveness in Europe are being daily eroded by decisions which should not be allowed within the framework of the EC. How can the EC allow continued and increasing amounts of beef and milk products into the Community from Eastern Europe while there is overproduction of these commodities in the Community itself? An agreement was reached three or four weeks ago which allows Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary to put more products into the Community, as if they had not been sending in enough already. That defies logic. We are the principal victims of such an irrational policy and we should be compensated accordingly.
The loss of our lucrative markets in the Middle East and North Africa is causing considerable difficulty for our farmers and processors. A huge proportion of our beef was exported to Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Libya, but none of those countries appears to be open to us for the sale of beef, or if they are, it amounts to only a pittance. They cite the BSE disease - "mad cow" disease - as a reason for not taking our produce but I do not believe that can be true because that disease is not a factor in this country; it is much more prevalent in other countries. An [666] initiative should be taken at the highest Government level to reopen these markets. The people in these countries are particularly partial to a visit from a senior Government Minister, or better still from a Prime Minister or Taoiseach. The Taoiseach should be prepared to go to these countries to try to salvage those markets. People may say the Iraqis cannot pay us. Of course they can; they can pay us in kind, with oil shipments. Every effort should be made to reopen these markets, and the Taoiseach would have the clout to do so.
There is a massive problem with cattle which are unsuitable for grading in factories and which would normally be shipped to Libya at this time of the year, but that market is closed at present. The Minister in recent times has not gone to Libya in an attempt to reopen these markets. I suggest that the Taoiseach, whose relationship with Colonel Gadaffi is well known, should go to Libya and ask Colonel Gadaffi to see to it that that market is reopened. While he is there he could tell him that we do not want his guns or explosives for the Provisional IRA. Let it be a dual visit. Let the Taoiseach put it on line that we want to sell our beef at a fair price but we do not want the murder machine in Northern Ireland to be generated and sustained by Colonel Gadaffi and his aides. That message should be made very clear.
I wish to give five minutes of my time to Deputy Gerry Reynolds. In conclusion, everything that has happened in recent times is of serious concern for the future of agriculture in this country. The agricultural sector has no confidence in the Minister, Deputy O'Kennedy. I do not wish to be personal but that is a fact. We get the distinct impression that his ministerial colleagues have no confidence in him; it was rumoured in the press recently that they told him to keep quiet, that every time he appeared on television regarding the Greencore issue he was making a bigger ass of himself. We need to instil confidence in the agricultural sector. We are not getting the type of leadership the farming community deserve. If the Minister cannot do that [667] job, the Taoiseach and the Government will have to take the matter in hand.

