I would like again to remind Deputies on the far side of the House that the national debt increased [598] from 12 billion to 24 billion in that period and that repayments are a solid 2 billion per year.

I agree entirely with what Deputy Blaney said in relation to the national debt but the one thing he forgot to say was that the achievements of this Government and the last Government have pegged back the rapid increase in that national debt.

That national debt is not at 27 billion, it is somewhere in the region of 26 billion. This Government and the previous Government have halted that increase. That is the reason this House should vote confidence in the Government.
I would like also to remind the people on the far side of the House that Deputy Bruton and Deputy Spring were major players in that period: they were the people who ran that Government. I would like to remind Labour that it was Deputy Spring who, I think, from his hospital bed, made a statement - the first of many statements - where he endeavoured to pull that ludicrous Government down. They say we have no unity, but that was the most disunified Government in the history of the State.

The Fine Gael Party had a meeting the other day and if the photographs on television and in the newspapers are anything to go by, I do not think they will form, in the near future, an alternative Government. It was appalling to see how very few members of the parliamentary party actually turned up for the meeting, if that is the full complement.

Deputy Spring makes great play of the fact that perhaps Fine Gael and Fianna Fil should coalesce. Deputy Spring has made a rule that the Labour Party will never again take part in any Government. That is a cop out as far as I am concerned. Obviously, they got their fingers burnt between 1982 and 1987 and they will not make that mistake again. The reality is that from 1987 to date, we have had low inflation and low interest rates. These have been the achievements of the Government.

We have sustained growth in the economy. Proof of the fact that the Government have made some effort to get to grips with the unemployment problem can be seen from the CSO figures. I challenge any Member on the far side to look at the CSO figures for employment between 1985 and 1990 and he will see the important thing is that the numbers in employment have increased.

There were 40,000 more people employed in this country between 1985 and 1990 than previously. That is the achievement of this Government and the previous Government.

Allegations have been [600] made over the last number of weeks and crocodile tears were shed because somebody was mentioned from this side regarding the naming of people in this House. Many people were named in this House over the last year but no crocodile tears were shed for them. I am very surprised that people with a legal background - such as Deputy Spring, Deputy McCartan and members of their parties - have come in here and made allegations without producing any proof. I always understood that somebody was presumed innocent until proven guilty, yet, here we have allegation after allegation without a scintilla of proof.
I was very interested in the US Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Alan Dixon said that Judge Clarence Thomas was entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That was a very telling phrase and that is why the majority of the Senators backed him. He was presumed innocent until proven guilty and the allegations made against him were not proven. The one thing in Judge Clarence Thomas's favour - and may be that is a flaw in this Parliament - was that he was able to answer the allegations made against him in the same forum in which they were made, unlike some of the people who were named in this House over the last year. They were not able to come in here and disprove those allegations which were made under absolute privilege.
This brings me to Dil reform. The Workers' Party brought forward a document the other day about Dil reform. That party have not covered themselves in glory on the Oireachtas working committee on Dil reform. At nearly every meeting we have had a different member of The Workers' Party was present. That is their testimony to Dil reform.

I am aware that they withdrew from it, because the Deputy who attended on that day did not realise what had taken place at previous meetings; hence my point that different people are turning up at every meeting.
I want to refer briefly to the allegations [601] made in this House under absolute privilege which were read out at the tribunal, and immediately the media were in trouble. May be it is a salutory lesson to the media and to people on the far side that allegations cannot be made without substantial proof.
In relation to Dil reform, we had a show here this morning for an hour involving calling for votes, which delayed proceedings. Perhaps the Committee on Procedure and Privileges should try to find some way to ensure that unsubstantiated statements cannot be made in this House unless they are backed up with some proof. One barrister at the tribunal referred to it as Leinster House tittle tattle. I think that says it all. It is an indication of why politicians are held in such low esteem by the general public.
Deputy Spring is a hypocrite. He challenged Goodman's right to go into court and contest constitutional issues, yet if anyone other than Larry Goodman wanted to contest constitutional issues, Deputy Spring would be the first on the high moral ground crying halt, saying we were trying to override that person's constitutional right. Why is Mr. Goodman not as entitled as anyone else to go as far as he can in our courts?

I would like to refer to two other items: one is the Temple Bar issue where Deputy Spring made certain references recently to some companies' subsidiaries. He said something underhand was going on in those companies. He was very quickly checked by his sidekick, Deputy Quinn, and The Dublin Tribune published an account of this, but there was no withdrawal, even though they asked for one, and were able to prove he had no evidence to back up what he was saying. Also, I would like to remind the House, and I would like to put it on the record that one of the first contracts given to NCB was given by the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition. In 1986 the Department of Communications gave a contract, without tender, in relation to the privatisation of an Aer Lingus company. The Workers' Party are obviously relishing all the business scandals.

It is part of their political agenda to destabilise not only the Government but the institutions of this State. The Workers' Party have no answer to the unemployment problem, as their clinging to the Eastern European model has shown.

Before the Adjournment of the debate last evening I had been dealing with a number of issues in relation to The Workers' Party. Over the past ten to 15 years The Workers' Party have adopted a hypocritical attitude to politics in this country. One instance I might give is that in relation to the Peace Train, how, since the inception of the Peace Train movement, they have been in the vanguard of that movement. Yet, if my memory serves me correctly, it was the Official IRA, their alter ego, who [629] were the first people to bomb the Dublin-Belfast rail line just north of the Border where I live.
I listened with great interest to what Deputy De Rossa had to say with regard to his links and those of his party with the Official IRA. I can recall an incident in Newry approximately 15 years ago when a bomber from the Official IRA blew himself up trying to bomb an installation just north of the Border. At the funeral of that gentleman the Official IRA knocked on every business door in Newry telling them to shut up shop. Perhaps my eyesight was not great at the time but I wonder whether the man who was at the front of the cortge bore any resemblance to the former Leader of The Workers' Party. Perhaps he did not; perhaps it was not the same person but it looked very like him.
Under the leadership of Deputy John Bruton Fine Gael have been going from issue to issue.

I had been referring to the Fine Gael Party. As the Taoiseach said in the course of his remarks unfortunately, they have been hopping from [630] issue to issue under the leadership of Deputy John Bruton. The criticism levelled at the leadership of Fine Gael by former Senator Maurice O'Connell reflects the views of some of the members of Fine Gael. They should take a leaf out of his book.

The reality is that under Deputy John Bruton's leadership, their party are giving assistance to the looney left to bring down and destabilise some of the institutions of this State.

I should like to remind them in relation to Telecom ireann that it was they who gave more autonomy to Telecom ireann, it was not Fianna Fil. At the time we agreed with it. At the behest of the Labour Party it was they who said that the semi-State bodies should have more autonomy, that there should be a "hands off" approach to them. Look where the "hands off" approach has got us.
I should like to refer now to a little piece of invective on the part of the Fine Gael Party. I refer to a postscript to the bottom of a notice of a constituency meeting in the midlands.

Yes, it is a very nice one but it just shows the depths to which Fine Gael have descended, the party of the late John Kelly and of former Taoisigh, Deputies Liam Cosgrave and indeed Garret FitzGerald. It is an agenda for a meeting - I will not quote it - but it is vindictive about an alleged Fianna Fil connection with various scandals. It says that "we all know of financial advantage being taken by Fianna Fil". It continues to say: "if you have proof of such of these and believe that they may be illegal please raise them at item No. 6; our party may be able to use it to its [631] advantage". It did not say: bring it to the attention of the Garda Sochna, so that at least it might be investigated to the national advantage. Rather it was for the advantage of Fine Gael. If anybody wants to see it I will produce the relevant notice. Those are the depths to which the Fine Gael Party have descended in recent years.
An Ceann Comhairle Sen Treacy 


I should like to refer briefly to what is happening north of the Border, the tit for tat murders which have been taking place which Deputy Currie quite rightly raised here this morning. I fully suppport what he said. Our papers have been inundated with reports on alleged scandals. Yet, unfortunately, the constant tit for tat murders have been afforded merely a tiny paragraph by the media. I say: "Shame on us; shame on us on this side of the Border." Unfortunately there was killing on my side of the Border during the summer. This is a matter the House is not addressing properly. If there is any party that can actually bring along nationalist opinion on this side of the Border and on the northern side of the Border in regard to any future Brooke-type talks, it is Fianna Fil. Deputy FitzGerald acknowledged that the intergovernmental conference in 1980 was the percursor of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

It was acknowledged to me and probably on occasion to Deputy Barry in private that they want Fianna Fil in power and at the negotiating table because it is we who will bring nationalist opinion along in regard to the problem in this island.

